Questions for a sidecar project...

[eddy321]

Hi all,
I find it hard to wait all day to do one race at VRRA events on my Modern GP bike...
Meanwhile my girlfriend has a good time watching all the other races, specialy sidecar races.
She must be the greatest fan of sidecar racing at the VRRA draging every person she can to watch sidecar practices, qualifyings and finals.
Pierre Rochat came up with the idea of us building a rig for my girlfriend and I to race.
I like small bikes...so we're looking at building the smallest possible rig, with a small 2 stroke engine (Max. 500cc twin or triple)
To make a long story short, we came up with the idea of duplicating one of the sidecar that was built by Rudi Kurth between 1966 and 1977.
His design was ahead of it's time as it was very small, lightweight and monocoque.
Here's my first problem, rulebook says no monocoque...

How firm are these rules?
It's a beautiful project that we'd like to build for the 2016 VRRA racing season.
We just cannot go forward until we know our rig will be eligible to compete with you guys?

Where do I go now?
Who can help me with the politics?

Thank you for your help
Hope this can come true!

Eddy (and Josée in the kitchen)

[commando]

I suggest you make a rule change proposal including as much info as you can find on these rigs as you could possibly fit on to paper. To me, it seems like this club is about preserving racing history. Making a rare replica of an innovative design sounds like the stuff this club is all about. You'd have my vote.

[jim kots]

Start posting all the info you can find on the design you intend to replicate here, others will verify or refute allowing you time for rebuttal.

Tech changes in the past have been agonizingly slow, new tech coordinator and new timelines. Make it an issue and request a change.

Start making your point, few are afraid of positive change.

Cheers Jim

[Ashton Bond]

1) Post as much info as you have here in the sidecar forum on the machine you want to replicate. That way you and your future fellow SC peeps can banter the idea about

2) Get as much documentation on the original as you can

3) Based on positive response, submit a rule change proposal in writing, citing the current rule, and then how the rule would be re-written to accommodate the machine you want to build. (Be thorough)

4) Request a time slot for the AGM to present your idea and it's documentation

5) Present the rule change proposal at the AGM (10-15min speech)

6) Based on the membership's positive reaction to your speech, ask for a show of hands to record a majority vote in favor of your idea.

7) Wait for a week or two (they'll work fast knowing your build is waiting the decision) while the Tech Committee considers the idea, it's premise, it's effect on current members, it's historical significance, the membership's favorable response to the idea, and to make any necessary wording changes.

8 ) The final version gets published in the Baffled Muffler and mailed to every member for an official vote.

9) Keep fingers crossed while you wait for the vote tally to be published on the forum.

10) Build like crazy!


Suggestions:
Don't re-invent the wheel. Changing the rule book to allow any and all Monocoque designs will probably not happen. A suggestion to allow this one particular historically significant design probably will be accepted. Just remember, your not asking to just build your machine, your asking everyone to change what they've already accepted as a rule. Think of it in that light when your writing your proposal and considering the idea, and you'll be fine.

[Michael Vinten]

Eddy,

I would love to see another sidecar on the grid. Your girlfriend is right - they are a lot of fun! A rule change of this nature would not be discussed at the AGM as it changes an existing rule. The only rule changes discussed at the AGMs since the change in rule change procedure in 2010 were the creation of the GP class and last year to allow modern GP bikes to enter. Sidecar rules in the VRRA, USCRA and AHMRA rules are very similar and several of us have been working over the last year to make them the same. Sidecar numbers are small and we want to promote them.

Collect your information and contact me (m.vinten@sympatico.ca) so I can ask the other two groups.

[tintop]

+1 on it would be great to have another sidecar out, especially a P3. However, while I am all for giving people choice, allowing a replica monocoque chassis in P3 is a can of worms. Not only do you have Rudi's design(s), there are also the ones from Windle, and the Seymaz from that period. Some of these also used center hub steering which is also not allowed under the existing rules. Additionally these ran in the World Champoinship using 500cc, 4 cylinder 2 strokes (TZ500, Krauser, Konig). Also the end of our P3 period is the begining of the monocoque long bike (LCR, Steve Webster 1980). So it's not quite as simple as just saying OK to one monocoque replica. Once you open that door.......

Eddy, I'm aware of a couple of sidecars that are possibly for sale (P2 & P3). Various states of 'ready to race', but all could be made ready for next year. If your interested email me.

Brian

[Stan Nicholson]

The creation of replicas of bikes that raced in each period has always been a bone of contention within the Tech/Rules Group, going back for years. There was the works, alloy monocoque 250cc Ossa that raced in the world championships in the late Period 1 period and even an alloy tube framed BSA twin that raced in the TT in, I think, 1954. These have been used to argue that alloy frames should be allowed in Period 1 but the club’s argument, to this point, has always been that if you can turn up the original bike that is fair game to be allowed to race it, but a replica is not. I believe the Classic Racing Club in the UK also uses this criterion.
If an early Cat was used as the basis of the recreation it would be a Period 2 outfit and, as you say because it was far ahead of the competition at the time, it would make the rest of the outfits built to the current P2 rules instantly obsolete.
I believe that the rules were set after much thought and careful consideration to try and keep them fair for the majority and while the odd aberration like disk brakes or alloy monocoque frames were used in period 1, for instance, it was decided that these should not be permitted in the period. As Mike says, we have always tried to keep our rules in line with the other NA vintage racing organizations to promote free exchange between organizations.
Stan

[Percy W]

How about the Biland/Waltisperg (LCR) B2B from '79. ?
I see Stan's point, and agree , but wouldn't it be wonderful to see some of these more unusual types. Even if it is a Replica. Could it be as a different category ? If someone showed up with a solo monocoque Norton , would we really turn it away or find a way to see this awesome bike go round the track. Maybe we could find a way (even if it's non points paying) to allow some of these more unusual bikes (sufficiently tech'd of course) encouraged? Just a thought.

[commando]

Like an exhibition class? That would be cool.

[pz1morton]

I personally am not a side car person, two wheels only please. but I do enjoy watching them race as they are very intriguing machines and it would be nice to see the club grow whether the machine is a replica or not and i also realize the rules put in place for a reason.. But as Joel has suggested that we have an exhibition class maybe with or without points. The way I see it as We will Have another sidecar out there with a Male/Female team. seems to be a growing spree going on in side cars.

All The Best Paul

[gary holden]

Like an exhibition class? That would be cool.

The reason that has been given in the past why this is not a good idea is because if the "exhibitionist" is competitive,even if not earning points,he could have an impact on the outcome of a race.But that could be said about any mixed class race where sometimes the fiercest battle are between riders in different classes.

[tintop]

I'm not against an 'exhibition class' if it was limited to original bikes (not replicas!) that fit the period, but are outside the existing rules e.g. monocoque chassis / hub steering. That said, a pre 1983 LCR long bike with a TZ500 would fit the description. So some careful thought / discussion into 'is a good idea' should happen.

Personally, promoting sidecars & building the grid based on the existing rules would be more helpful.

[commando]

I would just like to point out that almost every P2 sidecar out there IS a replica.

[Percy W]

Ditto what Joel said........very good point. I think 'exhibition' replicas would be great. 'Like' types are part of our rules. Of course each one is taken individually and goes through the tech committee for approval , but I see no issue with that at all. That is one of the tech committee functions. Having a bike that was new to the club and came as a 'replica' myself , I can say that the process works very well.
You offer up your bike, the tech committee gives feedback and you change things accordingly until it meets requirements.
If there is NO category for the bike you are entering, then it either needs to change to conform , or an exception must be requested.
To have an exhibition class would be a great way to allow some 'oddball' designs (true to original design) and draw more interest and increase our grid.
We are the only class that has all the periods racing together at once. So it's a bit counter productive to limit the field so much.
Let the sidecar grid grow.
Would love to see Eddy's proposed rig out there.
Now......who can propose this at the AGM?
Mayor?

[Steve F]

MY outfit IS A REPLICA of an erley L.C.R ,,,,,,,pleas let me come and ride it