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Endurance points system discussion

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Endurance points system discussion

Postby kirbster » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:53 pm

OK, i have been having some pretty interesting and lively discussions on the current endurance series scoring system.
Currently it is strictly mileage:

Total Laps X track length = mileage

That all seems fine on the surface at first glance. But round one was very competitive and we have 3 teams in middleweight at the front with the same mileage.

92 laps x 2.47Km= 227.24km

Essentially a 3 way tie. Very Exciting!

Except, this doesn't give any reward/advantage for finishing position, as we do in every other sprint race here in the VRRA.

WERA ran what could be called the jewel of North American Endurance racing. They used a combined scoring system where you got Mileage divided by 10 plus finishing position points.
If we used something like this but combined the mileage calculation with the current VRRA points system used in sprints then we have this:

Mileage/10+VRRA points.
Middleweight would look like this:
1st 22.724 +20= 43 points for first (rounding)
2nd 22.724 + 17= 40 points
3rd 22.724 + 15+ 38 points

Still a close race but now giving some advantage to finishing ahead of the competitor behind you- like any other race we do.

The problem i see with the current system is that when things are very close like this, the team that actually wins races could still lose the championship. If team 1 were to win 3 of 4 races and come in 3rd in the 4th race by a lap or two- they could still lose.
I don't necessarily want to emphasize winning, but to recognize that doing well at endurance requires a lot of hard work by the entire team - fast lap times and quick/fewer pit stops.

The combined scoring can lead to a few other things.
It allows you to both close and extend the the gap further. If the first place team also has a lap advantage the gap grows larger.
If the leading team has 1 bad race even by just a few laps - the mileage points allow the other teams to close that gap by piling on some mileage. Keeping the battle tight.

If the leading team continues to win while also doing more laps- their lead is extended even further.
Reward for getting everything right. Which is not easy in a 2 hour race.

I just want some good discussion on the above. This years scoring is set, we will continue with the mileage alone version.
I am looking towards next season and making sure the scoring makes sense for everyone.


So let the discussion begin!

Thanks for your time,
Kirby
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Re: Endurance points system discussion

Postby kirbster » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:57 pm

The above does not mention the handicap system, but handicap is calculated and added to total laps, which of course affects your mileage.
The same goes for any penalties- these are assessed as laps - also affecting your mileage.

Just to clarify
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Re: Endurance points system discussion

Postby Colin Duncan » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:06 pm

Hi Kirby,

Where are they handicap allowances posted?
Can't find them???

I do like your idea of some kind of points for finishing places.
I don't like "I don't necessarily want to emphasize winning"! Not the thought going through my melon on track!!!!! :mrgreen:

Cheers,
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Re: Endurance points system discussion

Postby kirbster » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:10 pm

At the end of the endurance rules section of the rule book
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Re: Endurance points system discussion

Postby eddy321 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:03 am

If winning does not give a benefit it should not be called a championship or a race but a social event...
"If everything seems under control, you are just not going fast enough"
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Re: Endurance points system discussion

Postby kirbster » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:50 am

We could also do raw mileage plus finishing points.
This would make the margins much tighter.

So laps x track length + finish position points

1st. 92 x 2.47 + 20 = 247 points
2nd 92 x 2.47 + 17 = 244 points
3rd 92 x 2.47 + 15 = 242 points

Still an advantage but one easily closed with an extra lap.
Keeping it very tight when it actually is. Making it more difficult for a team to gain a huge advantage unless they have done significantly more mileage.
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Re: Endurance points system discussion

Postby kirbster » Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:03 am

Ultimately you want a points system in endurance that does a good job of rewarding both consistency and pure speed.

Being endurance, a team needs to keep the bike on the track a much as possible, racking up as many miles as you can. This means staying out of trouble on track and staying out of the pits.

A team that fields a consistent result should have the possibility to catch a faster team that falters in any of these areas.

So the points system should use a combination of points like we have listed above.

The WERA mileage version gives less advantage to mileage, a lap would often not equal a single point.

The raw mileage would tip the favour to those that can put at least a lap between them and the position behind.

Lots of views- not too much input. I have tried to lay out the pros and cons of each system as best i can, but i need a few others to sift through this and see if i have missed anything. Then we need people to let me know which system they think is most fair and why.
After that we will likely have to submit a rule change proposal based on what we have come up with.
Thanks
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Re: Endurance points system discussion

Postby eddy321 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:08 am

Anything wrong with mileage divided by ten plus VRRA points?
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Re: Endurance points system discussion

Postby kirbster » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:33 am

Well that's what we are supposed to be figuring out.
And in the end I am happy with whatever we decide as a group.


It really Depends on what you want. I've had a few personal messages that figure the mileage alone will sort itself out as the season continues.

The divide by ten means that the mileage affect is actually minimized.

It takes 10km to equal 1 point. At Shannonville that means 4 laps. Unless we start doing points into 2 decimal points, it doesn't really allow a team that loads on extra laps to stretch their advantage.

I will track all the ways discussed for this season and see what affect- if any- it has on the championship.
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Re: Endurance points system discussion

Postby eddy321 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:28 am

Quiet forum...
Would total km + VRRA points be a good way of doing it?
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Re: Endurance points system discussion

Postby gary holden » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:40 am

Endurance racing is supposed to be about who travels farthest in the allotted time.Until we can put gps or odometers on the bikes to record actual distance or take into account partial laps behind the winner,completed laps,converted to mileage,is the best way,imho. Over 4 races,if there are any ties,use finishing positions to break the ties.
The difference between 1st and 2nd in this last race was 10 sec,1st and 3rd was 1:12 :shock:, If points are factored in,that's 1st to 2nd-3 points,1st to 3rd-5 points.Which on the Pro circuit (2.47 km) means the equivalent of 1 lap and 2 laps,just for being 10 secs and 70 sec behind 1st place in a 2 hr race. :x
Stay with mileage only.After 4 races it will sort itself out.If not ,break ties with finishing positions.
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Re: Endurance points system discussion

Postby mccoy » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:50 pm

I agree with Gary. Only use finishing position in the event of a tie at the end of the season.
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Re: Endurance points system discussion

Postby kirbster » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:21 pm

All good input. That is all I am looking for right now, opinions and thoughts on the various possible options.
Remember for this season, the scoring is set.

But think about a few things:

You won round 1 but are now technically tied for first with both second and third place. You are essentillay back to square 1 with no advantage. You have a level playing field as though round 1 didn't really happen.
This is counter to almost every type of race scoring out there.

You won round 1 ,2 and 3 but due to a small issue on a pit stop, you lose 2 laps in round 4. You finish second but still lose the championship with 3 firsts and a second. This should not be possible. How would you feel if it was you?

If you want mileage to be the biggest factor with only small advantages for position, then raw mileage plus VRRA points is a really good option. At calabogie a lap is 5km. 5 points verses only 3 point advantage for a win over second.

If you want finishing position to be the heavier factor, than WERA style scoring allows for some gain with mileage but finishing position is more important.

Let's keep the opinions rolling, this is your club, let's shape it how we see is the best fit.
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Re: Endurance points system discussion

Postby mccoy » Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:59 am

You won round 1 but are now technically tied for first with both second and third place. You are essentillay back to square 1 with no advantage. You have a level playing field as though round 1 didn't really happen.
This is counter to almost every type of race scoring out there.


I would argue that technically the endurance series is one race that takes place at four racetracks. Whoever completes the most laps, wins. In the event that any teams finish with the same amount of laps, the team that crosses the line first at the final track would be the winner of their class. Using a hockey game as an analogy, for the first and second periods team A has the lead, but in the third period team A is tired and makes some mistakes and then team B scores and holds the lead at the final buzzer. Team A doesn't get the win because they held the lead for most of the game, team B does because the were leading at the end.

You won round 1 ,2 and 3 but due to a small issue on a pit stop, you lose 2 laps in round 4. You finish second but still lose the championship with 3 firsts and a second. This should not be possible. How would you feel if it was you?


We all know the series is four races. We have to do the best at each race in order to win. If we have a bad race, we could lose.

If you want mileage to be the biggest factor with only small advantages for position, then raw mileage plus VRRA points is a really good option. At calabogie a lap is 5km. 5 points verses only 3 point advantage for a win over second.


If I remember correctly, last year, our team missed tying for second by one Calabogie lap. After Mosport, we knew how many laps we had to be ahead of the 2nd place team in order to move into the 2nd place spot. It was pretty simple to calculate where we were in the race and what we needed to do to move up. We just didn't get it done. I think adding points just complicates the scoring.

If you want finishing position to be the heavier factor, than WERA style scoring allows for some gain with mileage but finishing position is more important.


I think finishing position should only be used if a tie were to happen at the final round. For example, If three teams have the same number of laps, the team that takes the checkered flag did it the fastest and should therefore be the winner.
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Re: Endurance points system discussion

Postby kirbster » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:17 pm

Interesting perspective Mark. Well put together and layed out in a way that's easy to grasp.


Viewed like that it makes some sense.

Let's try and get a few other views. Eddy and I are old racers so we have a different idea of scoring.

Thank you!
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