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Endurance Team Riders

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Endurance Team Riders

Postby Mike Heggarty » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:53 pm

Hi Folks,
What are the rules regarding team riders for each event or perhaps the season going to be ?
Specifically who rides for each team & for how many of the events ? It seems to me in my WERA days we signed up team & crew at the beginning of the season and had 1 or 2 alternates for the season. What are the VRRA rules going to be ? Just wondering....
Thanks
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Re: Endurance Team Riders

Postby racerdude413 » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:26 am

The Team name and "captain" is the one important thing that determine who gets the points... The team captain doesn't need to ride, but the team name and the "captain" must be the same to earn points.

Other than that, you can change bike, riders, crew members. Obviously you earn points according to the bike you ride, so if at the first round you ride a LW bike and earn points for that, and you ride a MW bike at the second round you will earn points for MW, and have a smaller points total for each class.

You could bump up IE: if you ride the first round on a HW bike and it breaks down or is not available for the second round, you can use a MW bike to run the HW class at the second round to keep earning points in HW, but you will not receive points for MW.

I hope that is clear.
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Re: Endurance Team Riders

Postby Mike Heggarty » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:42 am

Hi Dom,
All clear. Thanks !
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Re: Endurance Team Riders

Postby Ashton Bond » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:21 am

The one thing that really threw a wrench in last year's points figuring was teams switching bikes (not a problem) then earning points in different classes. (Big problem) This is Percy's call, but in my opinion the team captain, team name, bike number AND class needs to remain the same all season to earn points toward the championship. You can grab any bike and run it in a "bump up" class, swap in equal bikes, different people and even run in separate classes if you want to run just for fun, but if you want to participate in the series (the new trophy is amazing!) you need to stay consistently in your original class. It's just too hard to keep track of split points from different rounds. That's the one thing that really tripped me up last year.
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Re: Endurance Team Riders

Postby Percy W » Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:40 pm

What Ashton and Dom said.
If you start as Middleweight , you stay as Middleweight ,and , if you show up with a Heavyweight later it won't count to your points tally with your Middleweight.

No switching bikes mid race either. I heard someone asked to do this last year when one broke down....or was that a myth.

Let's not complicate things too much eh?!

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Re: Endurance Team Riders

Postby thelittleguy » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:46 pm

Hey Percy
That was myself and Mike that swiched bikes . Our lightweight bike broke a header pipe on the first lap.Back in the pits all pissed off thinking , well that was a wast of fekin time . Greg stepped up and said , if we want to get his lightweight bike and switch transponder we could take it. Consulted with the authorities they all said , the bike is in the same class so why not. That was at Mosport last yr, that was the race that got us the lightweight championship , thanks to the kindness of Greg,
So worth considering keeping that in place , cuz it really helped team tenacious out.

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Re: Endurance Team Riders

Postby kirbster » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:18 pm

Switching bikes is legal, however... laps accumulated on the first bike are discarded. You start the race from scratch.

We had that problem in 2014. better to get some laps in and have some fun than throw the whole two hours away
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Re: Endurance Team Riders

Postby Percy W » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:53 pm

Steve, with only one lap in.....Greg was absolutely right.
And Kirby.....I'm not so sure about swapping bikes mid way through. Have to think about that.
It is an endurance race. Not two sprint races stuck together. When you enter a bike , that's the bike entered in the race and on the score sheet. Not the bunch more sitting in your trailer.
If we have live timing and you throw a transponder on another bike it doesn't recognize it as a different bike. Isn't the whole point of an endurance race to see how far and fast you can go on one bike?
Last year many bikes broke down and many teams made honest efforts to get them running again , within the 2 hours given.
The more I think about this the more I don't like it.
One or two laps , is one thing, halfway through the race is another.
One race.....one bike.
However, if you feel the need.......I would suggest a 20 minute time limit placed on changing bikes. Bike must be pretech'd if you intend to use it and registered as your 'alternate' or 'secondary' bike. Bikes , once changed , are scored separately. The change and subsequent laps must be recorded clearly and legibly on the teams hand written lap chart.

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Re: Endurance Team Riders

Postby gary holden » Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:26 pm

Percy W wrote:Steve, with only one lap in.....Greg was absolutely right.
And Kirby.....I'm not so sure about swapping bikes mid way through. Have to think about that.
It is an endurance race. Not two sprint races stuck together. When you enter a bike , that's the bike entered in the race and on the score sheet. Not the bunch more sitting in your trailer.
If we have live timing and you throw a transponder on another bike it doesn't recognize it as a different bike. Isn't the whole point of an endurance race to see how far and fast you can go on one bike?
Last year many bikes broke down and many teams made honest efforts to get them running again , within the 2 hours given.
The more I think about this the more I don't like it.
One or two laps , is one thing, halfway through the race is another.
One race.....one bike.
However, if you feel the need.......I would suggest a 20 minute time limit placed on changing bikes. Bike must be pretech'd if you intend to use it and registered as your 'alternate' or 'secondary' bike. Bikes , once changed , are scored separately. The change and subsequent laps must be recorded clearly and legibly on the teams hand written lap chart.

Percy.


"Switching bikes is legal, however... laps accumulated on the first bike are discarded. You start the race from scratch.
We had that problem in 2014. better to get some laps in and have some fun than throw the whole two hours away"
Kirby Crosby VRRA #252"

Sorry,Kirby. "5b. No bike substitutes after start of race"- from the Endurance Rules.
I can see both points of view.If it takes a backup bike to not throw the whole two hours away,then why not.But as Kirby says,you reset the lap counter to zero.Or count only the laps of the bike that does the most.
But as Percy says:"Isn't the whole point of an endurance race to see how far and fast you can go on one bike?" I agree with this also - it's the whole basis for "endurance" racing.
So let's make up our minds.
Amazed this hasn't happened in sprint races in classes where just finishing gets points? "A" bike goes bad,pull in to the pits,switch transponder to "B" bike and off you go to finish the race.Nothing in the rules against it.
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Re: Endurance Team Riders

Postby Ashton Bond » Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:02 am

That did happen two years ago. We switched from one fizzer to the other, and at the time were told it was legal as long as we were willing to give up the laps, which we were. I do think it's contrary to the spirit of Endurance Racing looking back. Like Percy said, the whole point is to see how far you can go with what you've got. I wouldn't support that type of swapping in the future. I wound however be OK with the time limit if Percy's OK with it. That's just giving an allowance for "old shit broke"...
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Re: Endurance Team Riders

Postby kirbster » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:00 am

lets not forget that this is a club and its primarily about fun.

I also agree with the endurance concept of trying to fix what you have. One bike and do what you can with it. But i also think if i can still get out on track, then that's what i want to do, i paid my money, i want to ride.

So taking out a second bike should be an option, but not one that can give any real benefit to the team beyond track time.

The martial or Endurance co-ordinator has to allow and also document that the new bike left the
he pits at X:XX hours:minutes and only those laps already scored on the A bike or those scored only on the B bike should count. Whichever is prefered.

I have no issue in saying- ok second bike goes out, but no further laps count...

Any way we want to do it in the spirit of endurance while also recognizing that we would like to ride if possible. Cause its about fun too.
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Re: Endurance Team Riders

Postby Percy W » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:56 am

No one is 'forgetting' it's for fun. Not sure why you felt you should throw that in there.

However.....the more people that are attracted to the Endurance Championship, the more serious it becomes and the more rules need to be clarified.
Question is.....do you want to race or just have tack time?
The point of the race is....a well prepared bike, a team, and see how far you can go on that bike.
I am willing to make concessions if a bike craps out early , like Steve and Mikes last year.

Other than that....it's the same as all the other races, prepare for the race, then give it your best.
Sure, it's disappointing when machinery breaks or won't work how you want, but that's racing.
We have all had weekends like that.

So here's some rule clarification.
2a. Only registered riders may compete on machines they have registered for. No borrowing riders.
No substituting riders.

5a. All machines must be able to pass tech inspection at any time during the race
5b. No bike substitutes after start of race

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Re: Endurance Team Riders

Postby Ashton Bond » Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:40 am

I agree.

The one thing I really feel like I failed at last year with this was in trying to give too much. No one pressured me to run separate points on different bikes, I said it'd be fine. Problem is that fractures the ability to score, and that in turn let's all of us down. That applies to substituting bikes as well.

If we allow it, it'll happen, and when it does, now someone has to keep track of it, and that's the hard part. Concise black and white rules starting out helps us all prepare for our racing. I don't think that detracts from the fun at all, it's just reassuring of what to expect.
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Re: Endurance Team Riders

Postby brian-d #43 » Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:08 pm

Steve Brown wrote:
That was at Mosport last yr, that was the race that got us the lightweight championship


Why was I under the impression that no one knows who won the Lightweight class last year? We (43) were in all 3 rounds and were still waiting on results to tell us if WE won.

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Re: Endurance Team Riders

Postby kirbster » Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:29 pm

Percy W wrote:No one is 'forgetting' it's for fun. Not sure why you felt you should throw that in there.

However.....the more people that are attracted to the Endurance Championship, the more serious it becomes and the more rules need to be clarified.
Question is.....do you want to race or just have tack time?
The point of the race is....a well prepared bike, a team, and see how far you can go on that bike.
I am willing to make concessions if a bike craps out early , like Steve and Mikes last year.

Other than that....it's the same as all the other races, prepare for the race, then give it your best.
Sure, it's disappointing when machinery breaks or won't work how you want, but that's racing.
We have all had weekends like that.

So here's some rule clarification.
2a. Only registered riders may compete on machines they have registered for. No borrowing riders.
No substituting riders.

5a. All machines must be able to pass tech inspection at any time during the race
5b. No bike substitutes after start of race

Percy. #77
Endurance Coordintor.


Sorry, wasn't trying to say anyone forgot. But seriously, the whole endurance race is kind of a fun race now with the added performance index (handicap).
I mean if we were racing seriously.... then there would need to be separate classes for all the machines, by period and weight class. I know that makes it messy, but that's real racing.
We wanted to get more teams involved and so we decided on the performance index to get some older slower machines out there. I get it and its what we are working on now and that's all good.
And i believe i was the original one to say- proper machine (competitive if you want to be competitive), properly prepared, riders and team properly prepared.
But nothing sours the experience more than spending the money, being properly prepared, and sitting and watching the race. It does happen. all i am suggesting is that a bike substitution be allowed to get the track time. Don't count a single lap. - remove the transponder... At that point your "race" is over. Why not let the guys get some laps in?

I do not see the harm. Only positives.
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