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P1 200

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P1 200

Postby Fastfearnie88 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:14 pm

Thinking of a P1 200 project. What do you think, Yam DT175 (CT1) or Kawi F7, I have front ends for both, need a pipe for the Yam and haven't really scoped out the Kawi stuff yet...
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Re: P1 200

Postby autofobe » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:35 pm

They will both make good projects.For me I will go with the F7.What front end will you be using?
Will you have it ready for mosport or will it be long term?
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Re: P1 200

Postby Rick Yates » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:33 am

I quite enjoy a challenge, so here's the bike I just aquired to run in P1 200.
Not really race ready, this is the "before" pic :lol:
These have never been roadraced as far as my research tells me, so the learning curve will be large!


Let's make this a large grid next year, get out your old bikes and fashion a racebike to run in P1 200!!!


Let the fun begin!

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Re: P1 200

Postby MGill » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:36 am

I'm in. Just need to lace up the wheels for the OSSA.
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Re: P1 200

Postby Percy W » Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:20 pm

Man....that brings back memories.....
The first 'new bike' I ever bought.
I tore it apart to to see how it works and couldn't get it back together.......some things haven't changed!
Mum was MAD!
If I could get my hands on one I would be 'in' too!

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Re: P1 200

Postby pacomotorstuff » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:59 pm

The fact that the rule book forbids Noguchi stuff means that you're at a disadvantage with the CT175 no matter how much you carve up the ports and shag around with the bike.
The F7 is a rotary valve and can really be made to run, especially if you can find or can clone a "Skunk Worx" intake but then again, would it be P1? I dunno... pretty modern engine for P1 IMHO but if it's allowed, go fer it.
OTT, maybe you should look for a different roller to put the motor in, as the enduro chassis geometry is pretty bogus for a road racer... Just don't forget to have tech okay your mongrel, should you decide to embark on an alternate frame.
Just my tuppence worth.
Good luck on your project(s)
Pat Cowan,
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Re: P1 200

Postby autofobe » Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:34 pm

I dunno... pretty modern engine for P1 IMHO but if it's allowed, go fer it.

Don't know where you get this from even early Yamaha racers were rotory.
This engine was built in the mid sixtys.The yamaha ct1 was not even built in the period
but can run in P1/200,which by the way does well in the states.
Anything we can do to increase the early grids should be welcome.
Not criticised.
Great job Rick throwing out the challenge.
Come on people,lets get the P1's out of the back of the garage.

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Re: P1 200

Postby pacomotorstuff » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:43 am

Brad,
I stand by my comments.
Yes, Yamaha built rotary valve road racers (RD56 for one) as well as their 125cc twin and later 4 cylinder 250cc race bikes. If any of them ever showed up at a VRRA grid, it would be amazing.
Yes, their (smaller cc) street bike line was rotary valve (50, 55, 60, 80, 100 and 125cc) all singles and all slopers. I believe all of them had cast iron cylinders though a few of the later ones - after '68 I believe - had aluminum cylinders with cast iron liners. Some of us will remember the GYT kits sold by Yamaha which made the 80's a real screamer but maybe a little small for P1-200 and would a GYT-kitted Yamaha be legal anyway?
I am not aware of Yamaha building a larger capacity rotary valve bike that was sold in Canada / North America and I don't think the 125 with its pressed steel frame, 4 speed transmission, 22mm carb and a stock weight the same as a Ducati 250 would make a very competitive P1 mount - but maybe I'm wrong.
Which leaves us with the original question posed - what would be the better platform to convert for P1-200, a CT-1 or a F7?
My response was use the F7 - rotary valve vs piston port was the main reason - more potential for horsepower. Stock factory ratings were 14HP for the CT and 21HP for the F7 (got these off the web today).
My other comments also hold true:
1) no Noguchi parts are allowed (for those of you who don't know, Noguchi was connected to Yamaha for a number of years as a Yamaha race development department), so no matter what you do to the little CT, not terribly quick and the Noguchi stuff when you can find it is pretty expensive anyway. You say the CT1 does "pretty good" down in the US -be interesting to see who uses what in their motors and if they would even be VRRA legal...?
2) if you can find an old Skunk Worx intake for the F7, it allows you to run something like a 32 or 34 mm carb and looking at the rule book, can't see why someone couldn't use one if they could find it or clone it if they had some good photos of one like I do (email me, Rick).
3) the F7 is a pretty modern motor for P1 IMHO. It was built from 1971 to 1975. I'm sure wiser heads than I knew what they were doing when the F7 was allowed in P1, but in 1967, the Kawasaki 175 F2 Standard was a 4 speed, cast iron cylinder, stamped steel frame and swing arm motorcycle which some of us old relics still remember as being sold as "The New K Bike!" by Canadian Tire. Dunno what parts are interchangeable, F1 vs F7 but my guess is "not many"...
4) looking for another chassis to slide either motor into. This is based on my own, personal "sad" experience of trying to get an enduro bike chassis to act like a road racer. Eventually, we went to a converted Yamaha street bike chassis - lower steering head position, shorter forks, correct steering geometry and enough info and parts out there to make chassis setup pretty straightforward. Pretty much how Kawasaki saw it when they started putting the Big Horn motor in the H1/H2 chassis I guess.

Anyway, my purpose wasn't to try to make grids smaller - in fact, just the opposite. I'm beating the bushes right now to find a P1-250 ride that I can afford - the BSA 250 I was looking at being wayyyyy out of my league, money-wise and a Triumph 250 I recently investigated, even more-so..
If you've seen Rick's other race bikes, you know he'll be gridding with a topnotch piece of equipment, the best, fastest and safest he can build and I say, "Bully for him", great to see another race bike on the grid...
Pat
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Re: P1 200

Postby Ashton Bond » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:53 am

I sooooooo want to participate in this class. The issue I have is that most of the bikes on the list are like un-obtanium around here, so just from a logistical consumer standpoint I'm glad to see the F-7. I might know where one is, and yes the chassis is gonna take some major renovations, but that's part of the fun too!
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Re: P1 200

Postby Peter Balfour » Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:05 am

This is based on my own, personal "sad" experience of trying to get an enduro bike chassis to act like a road racer. Eventually, we went to a converted Yamaha street bike chassis - lower steering head position, shorter forks, correct steering geometry and enough info and parts out there to make chassis setup pretty straightforward.


Hey Pat, my BSA B50 was an enduro bike in a former life and its frame is perfect for a road racer. The same with the Yamaha XT500's. There are even guys making roadracers out of current motocross frames so I think its should be possible to make any frame work with the correct fork & shock length. Actually, with enough money and stubborness I'm sure you could make anything work! :D Just look at those Harley racers :lol: .
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Re: P1 200

Postby pacomotorstuff » Fri Sep 28, 2012 11:58 am

Ya Pete,
But your bike was a piss-poor enduro bike and the XT500, not a whole lot better. Both made nice street bikes with the ability to take an occasional wander down a cowtrail or gravel road and not come unglued.
In stock form, they were excellent for getting your ass handed to you if you were even semi-seriously competing in an enduro. Ya sure I know both were ridden competitively, but oftentimes the ones that did really well had suspension, frame (including complete aftermarket frames) and engine mods that made the bike a couple a times more expensive than the stocker.
And as for making modern MX'ers into a "competitive" road racer - not a super motard or some such, the mods are extensive and expensive - but what racing isn't?
But its all a moot point I guess; if someone can make the stock frame and running gear work for them, go for it, 'cause I/we couldn't with our project.
Jeez, if I can't find a old Brit bike I don't have to sell my remaining kidney to buy, guess I'd better look at an F7.
Pat
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Re: P1 200

Postby Rick Yates » Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:43 pm

Hey Pat
Thanks for the great seat, looks like it'll work fine.
That was the best swapmeet I've seen at Milton. The only big bits I need now are a carb and rear shocks...


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Re: P1 200

Postby pacomotorstuff » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:58 am

Now here I am, looking for an F7 lump instead of an old British lump.
I must be mad...
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Re: P1 200

Postby Peter Balfour » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:04 am

That was the best swapmeet I've seen at Milton. The only big bits I need now are a carb and rear shocks...


Rick bought so much stuff we all thought he was building a bike there! I second that, awesome swap meet. I only lost about 50% from the original cost on all the stuff I sold! :lol: Better than buying stocks.... :D
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Re: P1 200

Postby pacomotorstuff » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:33 pm

Ya Peter,
You and me, we're on the "Freedom 95" plan...
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