Vintage Road Racing Association

I understand there are rule changes possibly happening for the endurance series in 2024z

Can the details be shared so the membership can plan accordingly?

Thanks

That would be great. I'm cobbling together an Endurance bike for next year so if there are going to be major changes I can build around them now.

In the past these changes were posted February 26 while Kirby was coordinator.

I’ll do the same timeframe.

In the interim, all rounds will be 2 hours, Tag Team will be available for all rounds and I am working on getting more bikes on the grid.

If you wish to chat, touch base with me in messenger or text 705-562-8807

Dave

I was thinking it would be nice to have an open dialogue on what changes are proposed and why?

As has been done in the past.

Thanks Dave.

Ok. So I’m assuming the basic format will not change then. So if I build a P3 bike it will still slot into light, middle or heavy Vintage as appropriate and then handicap applied based on Period.

I am determined to not to be working on it the night before again this year

yes

Light
Middle
Heavy
Tag Team
Modern light

Dave

Will there be changes to the current handicap system?
Handicaps are currently listed in the rule book - endurance section.
Any changes need to be updated there as well.

As someone who will be racing an actual Vintage bike, P3L presumably in “light”
I’m curious to know what we’ll be up against?
Confirmation the class structure is changing or not would be appreciated.

P3L is up against P4F3 in Light.

The current reigning champ is Mike Vinten on a P3L

Dave

The original handicaps were calculated across the entire range of classes in the club.

So, while it hasn't happened much at all- the idea was that any bike in the club could do the endurance race if they so choose.
They will have a shot at winning the class because we tried to level comparative riders on different machines.

Our historical information would show we had primarily P3, P4 and P5 entries. And this was somewhat predictable as they are the newest and most comfortable machines to run for an extended period. Easiest to maintain and get parts for.

We did have a very successful team on a P1-350 a few seasons ago. I believe they had a great season and ended up on the podium often.

The handicaps are there to level out machinery, not rider skill.

Scenario 1.
A well prepared P3 Heavy team with Eddie Lawson and Kevin Schwantz on board should beat a well prepared P5 Heavy team with club fast guys on it. Because the rider skill is what is separating the teams.

Scenario 2
A Well prepared P5 Heavy Team with front running team members on it should beat a well prepared P4 Heavy machine with mid level club riders on it.

Teh handicaps were calculated off of lap records in each class as a way of setting a "maximum potential performance" in any given class.

In any class the records tend to be set by "fast guys".

Rider skill set is still the largest contributing factor and ultimately winning teams should be the fastest rider combinations in any class.

This can mean that a standout rider - someone considerably faster than most, can dominate no different than in a sprint. And if the team chooses to ride older equipment they can leap even further ahead due to the handicap.
But if that team also ran on newer equipment - they would also tend to be out front by a considerable distance - enough to overcome any handicaps by reasonably fast teams on older equipment.

No handicap system will ever be perfect, there are just too many variables.

But a handicap system can be shown to be working reasonably well if the fastest teams (greatest rider skill) tend to win. Regardless of what machine they are on.


The raw timing data from the race will always give everyone the ability to measure themselves against other teams "head to head".

I just hope any changes to the previous system don't lose sight of the original goals:

1. To allow any machine in the club to have the opportunity to race endurance. Growing the field.
2. Allow the fastest teams to be the ones that finish first. Regardless of what machine they choose to enter on.

And remember, speed comes from also being well prepared in the pits and keeping the bike out of the pits, and on the track as much as possible...

Because ........."slow laps are better than no laps"
and losing even a minute in the pits requires a lot of hard fast riding to recover from.

It's a team sport and as such all components of the team have to perform to make the most of it and maximize your mileage.

Based on the past, the system has worked reasonably well.
There is a lot more P5 data available now and as such the handicaps could be recalculated based off of better data.

P5 was estimated when the current system was put into place.

Good luck this season- I don't think we need a full rewrite - but some tweaks could be beneficial.

kirbster wrote:I understand there are rule changes possibly happening for the endurance series in 2024z

Can the details be shared so the membership can plan accordingly?

Thanks

Something strikes me as odd here. If the class rules and handicaps for endurance are written in section 8 of the rule book, and the rules are frozen, how can adjustments be made without a vote to unfreeze the rulebook?

livetoride21 wrote:

kirbster wrote:I understand there are rule changes possibly happening for the endurance series in 2024z

Can the details be shared so the membership can plan accordingly?

Thanks

Something strikes me as odd here. If the class rules and handicaps for endurance are written in section 8 of the rule book, and the rules are frozen, how can adjustments be made without a vote to unfreeze the rulebook?

Correcting myself here, I've been corrected in that only the "technical rules" are frozen.
However, it's not 100% clear in the constitution the process for other rule changes. For technical rules it is very well spelled out .
Regardless of what the process may be, as Kirby said, it would be valuable for any proposed changes to be posted for discussion before being decided, as the members who participated and continue to participate in the endurance series may have valuable suggestions and input.